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Development History of the Burgman 650

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Advanced Member

Burgermiser

Gosport Peninsula-England.

12:50 pm December 20, 2009

posts 127

Yes, good point, that, Henry.Wink

I was thinking of "Pedalling Pedals", and not a brake pedal.Surprised

Trust me to grab hold of the wrong end of the stick.Laugh

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Moderator

Henry_C

The Sunrise Coast, Lowestoft, England

12:41 pm December 20, 2009

posts 246

Burgermiser said: macharlebois said:…….I've never seen " Pedals " on a scooter. But MOPEDS had pedals, and, you back-pedalled, to operate the rear brake.Smile


I think he means the foot brake which Vespas and Lambrettas all had in the 1960s, indeed all bikes had until the "twist and go" took over the market and someone had the bright idea of using the redundant clutch lever as a brake lever instead! GOOD THINKING, BATMAN! That way I can pull my undercarriage up nice and early and tuck it away well forward where it's most comfortable!Laugh

There are old pilots and there are bold pilots – but there aren't many old bold pilots!

Advanced Member

Burgermiser

Gosport Peninsula-England.

12:39 pm December 20, 2009

posts 127

Chet said:

Cutting the gas on a 650 in a slow turn will get you to ground real fast. Do the same on the 400 and it is free wheeling at low RPMs. 


The 650 needs a switch for turning on the rear brake light not for stopping.  Laugh


That "Free Wheeling" on the 400, comes in at 15 MPH, and can take you by surprise, at first, as you're expecting it to slow down, even more, but it doesn't. It seems to speed up, if anything. Yell It's quite unnerving, until you get used to it.  SO BEWARE ! ALL NEW 400 RIDERS. Surprised It would be a good idea, for the seller, to warn the buyer, about it.Wink  Nobody warned me!

Surely, there's more than enough switches, on the 650, already, Chet. You only have to squeeze one of the brake levers, lightly, for the brake light to come on.Surprised

Advanced Member

Burgermiser

Gosport Peninsula-England.

12:08 pm December 20, 2009

posts 127

macharlebois said:

H


Here in Canada, I was told that Transport Canada did not allow the licensing of scooters that were not equipped with a pedal activated rear brake.  It took Suzuki several years of demonstrations and road tests to have the regulation modified.  It may explain in part why very little was done to market the big scooter up here. 



Are you sure you don't mean " MOPEDS " (motorised bicycles) rather than scooters.Wink

I've never seen " Pedals " on a scooter. But MOPEDS had pedals, and, you back-pedalled, to operate the rear brake.Smile

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Chet

Blountville, TN

9:07 am December 20, 2009

posts 160

The 400 has a reasonable engine braking while the 650 takes a nose drive. Takes some getting used to on the 650.  I prefer the 400 because of the braking. 


Cutting the gas on a 650 in a slow turn will get you to ground real fast. Do the same on the 400 and it is free wheeling at low RPMs. 


The 650 needs a switch for turning on the rear brake light not for stopping.  Laugh

From the hills of Tennessee welcome to another beautiful day the Lord has made.

nn(Own a 2005 Silver Burgman 400 and 1982 Honda Silverwing GL500

Experienced Member

BurgieKing

Yeovil, Somerset, UK

6:15 pm December 19, 2009

posts 88

My 650 is much the same with the engine braking, so much so that it can be quite alarming for following cagers if I don't make a conscious effort to show some brake light when slowing down! Unless I'm doing more than about 40mph I find I don't need to touch the brakes at all.

Junior Member

bernard

north wales UK

6:05 pm December 19, 2009

posts 23

Burgermiser said:

A few people have said that the 400 hasn't got engine braking, like the 650, has. But that is NOT the case, with the 09 model. When the throttle is released, it starts braking straight away. The Brakes are not required.


I can confirm that. My 400 has engine braking provided that you dont throttle back all the way. I can reduce my speed from 70 to 50 fairly quickly, without using the brakes.Wink

spend it, you can't take it with you!

Advanced Member

Burgermiser

Gosport Peninsula-England.

7:01 pm December 18, 2009

posts 127

It's a bit of both, Bernard.

The forward (front) part of the transmission system, is belt driven. (aka 400). That's where you get your "Twist & Go" from. The rear end of it, the final drive, is a SERIES of (cogs) gear wheels. (NOT a normal gearbox)

I think the reason for that set-up is, On the 650, the engine is mounted further forward, in the main chassis, and a fair distance from the rear wheel. The gears, take up that extra space. (Gilera solved that problem, by using a CHAIN final drive, on their GP 800 scooter). Where-as, the 400's engine, is mounted on the rear suspension swinging arm, and is much closer to the rear wheel.Smile


A few people have said that the 400 hasn't got engine braking, like the 650, has. But that is NOT the case, with the 09 model. When the throttle is released, it starts braking straight away. The Handlebar brakes are not required, most of the time.

Junior Member

bernard

north wales UK

1:11 pm December 18, 2009

posts 23

"Pedal activated rear brake" " belt transmission"

I thought the 650 was like the 400 for braking, that is to say, using levers on handle bar.

I also thought that the transmission was obtained through gears, like a normal gearbox, unlike the 400 which uses a belt. Am I wrong?

spend it, you can't take it with you!

New Member

macharlebois

9:16 am December 18, 2009

posts 3

H


Here in Canada, I was told that Transport Canada did not allow the licensing of scooters that were not equipped with a pedal activated rear brake.  It took Suzuki several years of demonstrations and road tests to have the regulation modified.  It may explain in part why very little was done to market the big scooter up here. 

Personally, I am convinced that the brake arrangement on the Burgman 650 is one of the best in the market.  The only thing I wish my Burg 650 Exec had was a "neutral" position in the gearbox, and maybe even a "reverse" position, but that is another story…

I hope for a very short winter.  Last Spring, I rode the bike for the first ride of the season on March 15.  It was bloody cold but what a feeling after several months of snow and misery.

Full Member

George

7:43 pm December 17, 2009

posts 30

I was riding an Aprillia 250 SportCity and knew nothing about the Burgman. I only found about the bike a scooter club meet and ride.  It was love at first sight.  

Experienced Member

rdinning

3:02 pm December 17, 2009

posts 67

In my experience in Europe – limited as it is – I saw loots of ads for the 400 but nothing for the 650.

Advanced Member

Burgermiser

Gosport Peninsula-England.

12:56 pm December 17, 2009

posts 127

I found out about the 650, in 2002, when it first came out, here in the UK.  But not from Suzuki. I read about it in "What Bike" mag. Which used to be a good mag; with a lot of technical details. But they got lazy, and dropped all that, and now only copy what they've printed in earlier issues. Stuff which is now, well out of date. I don't buy it any more.

New Member

TexasKat

Georgetown, Texas

12:30 pm December 17, 2009

posts 9

I agree.  Suzuki does a terrible job marketing the Burgman in the USA.  I found out about the Burgmans by websurfing when I was looking for a bigger scooter. I had no idea they built scooters as big as the 400 and 650.

Admin

Steve Rhode

12:27 pm December 17, 2009

posts 208

They run print ad and commercials for them all the time in Europe, just not in the U.S. 

Steve

My one claim to fame here, I'm the guy that started the BurgmanRiders.com site.

Full Member

ascootrider in CA

12:15 pm December 17, 2009

posts 31

Thanks for posting –Interesting reading.  Now if we could plant the seed of a 750. . .

For almost a happenstance creation, I tend to think they hit the ball out of the park.  I routinely get on busy southern California freeways and think the Burgman bikes are the best commuter bikes imaginable, especially the 650 Exec.

I think the only area Suzuki has fallen down in is in marketing.  My own journey to Burgman happiness resulted from my walking by a parked Majesty, and thinking I could see myself on one of those.  From there the research led to this site.  Back when people had jobs(like last year) there were many young and older potential scoot riders.  Had I seen a decent ad or commercial for a burgman, I suspect I'd have checked it out earlier.


Ride safe

Art H

Admin

Steve Rhode

11:11 am December 17, 2009

posts 208

Richard,

Thank you so much for posting this. A very interesting history.

Steve

My one claim to fame here, I'm the guy that started the BurgmanRiders.com site.

Experienced Member

rdinning

10:52 am December 17, 2009

posts 67

 A short story I gleamed from a board in Japan written by a person who claimed they were an engineer for Susuki. Here's what he said.

"When the Suzuki design team finished the Burgman 400 design and it was released to production they looked around for another project and it was suggested they build a bigger version of the 400 with more power. At first it was thought of as a joke, but the more they worked on it the more serious it became until after about six months they presented the concept to management. To their shock management jumped on it. (This may show you that Suzuki OS a very different kind of company. Remember this was late 1999 or early 2000 and scooters, on a world wide basis, were small with small motors, strictly cheap transportation for the masses.)

Once management accepted that they would finish the design and build this huge scooter there were several major problems to be solved. Simply stated Suzuki didn't have a suitable motor and designing a new motor from scratch was far too costly, estimated at $400,000,000. If you think that is a ridiculous amount, it cost GM nearly one billion dollars to design the new V6 that is in all those new vehicles that they are claiming gets better mileage than Toyota.

The second problem was a belt for the transmission that would be able to handle the power of a 650cc engine. The last problem was tires. No one was building any thing close to this new bike and scooter tires were eight to 12 inches, nothing bigger at the time and motorcycle tires started at 16 inches. They needed a unique sized tire with unique characteristics. It needed to be able to act like a sports bike tire at times and as a city bike tire at others.

To solve this they put out a tender to all the large tire manufacturers. Only two responded and only Bridgestone was willing to do the R & D to come up with a good tire for this unique bike. The result was the OEM tire so maybe now you know why it performs better than the Irving come lately tires from the competition.

The belt for the transmission problem was solved when they found a belt for a CVT in Subaru's parts bins for a small car they had sold in the mid 90s. Taken as is without modification required some redesign of the transmission but that was considered acceptable because if a belt can pull a 2500 to 3000 pound car with four occupants around for half a million miles, they wouldn't need a change interval for the 600 pound bike.

The last problem was the engine and that almost sank the project until a young engineer checked a Hayabusa engine block out of stores, took it to a band saw and cut it in half. Then he cut the back end off and had the end piece welded together with the front half. The result was the prototype for the Burgman 650 engine. If you find this hard to believe, look at the displacement of the previous generation Hayabusa engine. The Burgman 650 engine at an actual 638cc is exactly half that displacement. Some internal tuning was done to reduce HP and increase longevity for the Burgman, but that was very minor."


This was extracted several years ago from a Board in Japan. What's here is extracted from the Google Translation system so I probably missed a lot of details, but I got the gist of it.


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